Catholic Church 1, Labour Whips 0
108 scientists and academics have written to The Times demanding an un-whipped free vote on the Frankenstein Bill. Unrelated, but obviously due to pressure, Geoff Hoon is now saying that Catholic MPs can follow their conscience and abstain on the Frankenstein Bill. He is not however saying they can vote against it. LibDems and Tories are being given a free vote.
33 comments:
Now, if another Catholic would just go and finish off the job that was started 403 years ago ...
Why only Catholics> Isn't that a bit "racist"?
Not being able to vote against, ie doing nothing is just as bad for those who consciences tells them it is wrong. That does not just apply to Catholics either, the rest of Christianity and most humanity has strong beliefs on this subject too.
I wonder what he would do if Muslim MPs wanted to vote against it?
Surely only an agnostic could "follow their conscience" by abstaining...?
Spokey -
Happy to oblige.
TK
So why weren't patriotic Labour MPs allowed to vote against the Lisbon Constitution Treaty? Why is religion always the get-out-of-jail card when honourable members can feel equally strongly about other matters? My religion called Freedom for Grown-ups is opposed to income tax and ID cards so can I opt out on conscience grounds.
The UK is NOT a catholic country.
Why bother voting?
It is only a PRETEND democracy. Let us be honest about the situation, most bills that are pushed through are ALWAYS counter to what the electorate wants or needs.
The biggest joke is "listening" Bean.
Some advice to you snotty, anything YOU think would benefit this country and its future is always Fucking Utterly Bollocks. You are a cowardly inept waste of space and oxygen.
We the public hate you because you ARE by far and away the very WORST politician EVER.
HINT HINT HINT!!!
You are not looking well, retire soon please. I will ghost write your books you just sit in a darkened room and pick your nose.
Am I being harsh?
Come on Bean reply - Guido will let you you know!
word var: pmdud
Who is Bill Frankenstein?
Guido, how can anyone offer "Orthodox Catholics" a free vote on something like this?
Think about it.
anon@12:58 "the uk is NOT a catholic country"
what sort of brain dead statement is that? the issue is about MPs being given a free vote on an issue of moral/ethical importance for all christians / muslims / agnostics / etc.
I thought MP's follow the dictates of the electorate, whether they be Christian, Catholic, Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist or anything else.
Oh shit, i'm sleep-working again.
One trust's that the Catholic MP's will ignore the abstention order and vote against, just to piss off that cnut Hoon.
penfold @ 2:28
Anything that pisses off smug Hoon is a good move...
Geoff Hoon - rough translation = Catholic votes still welcome for Labour but were going to screw everything you find sacred anyway.
Now if only we could persuade those living in Eire that by voting against the EU constitutional treaty they would also stop this piece of UK legislation...
Given that there is no god (at least not a god who cares enough to stop all the misery in the world, supposedly for the sake of some 'higher' purpose according to kool-aid dispensing clerics), why should any of us, including MPs, pay any attention to what 'god' supposedly thinks?
The only thing that counts is human progress in pursuit of life, liberty and happiness.
And if I'm wrong, let god strike me down immediately, ne ne, ne, ne ne!
I suppose superficial tosh is all we can expect from "C. Hitchens is right". But apart from the idiotic "philosophy" do consider the point of conscience clauses: you may think you are *certainly* right but so do other people. Respecting diversity of conscience is fundamental to democracy.
PS Even someone who swallows C Hitchens whole might notice that "putting an end to all misery" would not necessarily increase the "human progress in pursuit of life, liberty and happiness" that you claim to want.
"The only thing that counts is human progress in pursuit of life, liberty and happiness."
What, you mean nuclear weapons, communism, cluster bombs, thalidomide, global warming, mad cow disease... that sort of progress? Or did you have something else in mind?
Sorry about the human misery but as JP Satre pointed out "hell is other people" - so presumably the human misery was actually OUR fault and we should stop using poor old God as a scapegoat, pull our finger out and STOP DROPPING BOMBS ON EVERYBODY!
Anony-sheep: "What, you mean nuclear weapons, communism, cluster bombs, thalidomide, global warming, mad cow disease... that sort of progress?"
If your 'god' is as powerful as you claim (powerful enough to create the universe etc.), and so full of love, then it is entirely within his ability to create a world of happy people without all the miseries (and others) that you mention. But, for some reason, he doesn't. He either isn't powerful, or doesn't care of doesn't exist.
As for Startcourse, yes, we may all believe that we are right in our own ways, however, unlike you, I base my views on the existence or otherwise of god on tangible facts rather than a belief in some ancient fairy stories with all the provenance of Hans Christian Andersen.
@richard dawkins is right: Please, enlighten us. Give us some "tangible facts". Give us something to believe in. We're all ears. I want to have my life made beautiful, easier, lovelier and happier. Obviously Mr Tangible has all the answers. What would make the world a better place? What exactly is the point of our lives?
@richard dawkins is right: No ides forthcoming? Ah well, I suppose its OK if people believe in "fairy stories" then.
By the way, I'm not religious - I just don't look down on those that are. They often seem to be nice people. I do look down on those that think "human progress" has all the answers. I'm an electronics engineer but we aren't working to save the planet - we're here to make money. Did you think we were more high-minded? Sadly no (and the scientists are no better - they don't want to save people from serious illness, they just want to make money. Money, money, money). Do wake up.
sorry to be a bore but this is another clear example of party politics contaminating the democratic process.
MPs have three considerations. the party line, their constituents' views and their own conscience. if a party line is unacceptable to an MP's conscience then their conscience must ofcourse come first. for parties to use the whip on such occasions would seem to be a breach of the human rights of the MP being whipped.
party politics distort democracy and prevent decent politicians from taking good positions.
I think we will only get MPs interested in representing the local people rather than the party line if we vote for reasonable local independent candidates.
Why were Liebour MPs forced to vote against a referendum on the EU Constitution against their constituents and against their consciences if any of them have one?
thick as shit said...
"sorry to be a bore"
At last you've realised it.
wonkotsane,
gordon brown fears holding a referendum on the EU constitution because it is highly probable that he would lose the vote. as he has no genuine mandate such a loss would make his position become untenable. it would certainly afford the conservatives enough political capital to call for a vote of no confidence.
in short, we are not having a referendum because it is not in gordon brown's interests to hold one.
anonspaz 9.42,
but ofcourse everything is relative.
compared to a completely boring spastic like you,
I am quite an interesting person.
Anon 5.57 wrote:
"..the scientists are no better - they don't want to save people from serious illness, they just want to make money. Money, money, money"
Not true of most scientists that work in UK Universities. Really. Typical salary in mid 40s after first degree, Ph.D. six-eight years of more training / short contracts, Univ job in early-mid 30s and 10 more yrs slog: £ 38-55 K.
Compare:
GP similar age/seniority 80-120K:
NHS Consultant similar age 80-160K.
Lawyers: someone here would know better than me.
Anyway, the idea that scientists are in it to get rich is laughable, frankly
Congrats to you Geoff Hoon.
You've proved that it is possible to be laughably stupid and incredibly sinister at the same time.
Not sinister because of the 'frankenstein bill', I support genetic research.
Sinister because issues like this have always been free votes.
It's friday night so lets have a joke:
The Labour Government
The bit about scientists being in it to make money is particularly hillarious in light of the fact that if you have a PhD in a vaguely numerical area, you can (still) walk into a city job on 100k+ basic (plus bonus).
Research for the big pharma companies pays better than Uni, but not by much. We don´t value reasearch in this country.
mach 12:42 PM
You know, I'm not sure...
gallimaufry 12:47 PM
Free votes are only permitted on questions of a profound moral or philosophical nature where conscience and deep-rooted religious belief may significantly influence an individual's final decision eg. MP's pay.
Catholics are the biggest supporters of mass immigration of any religious group; makes you think.
yeah, makes me think atleast people aren't bashing muslims for a change.
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