Tory "Deep Polling" Shows Seismic Public Attitude Change
Strengthens Hand of Modernisers
What brought about the unusual change of tone at PMQs yesterday? Brown was mildly bemused by the line of questioning. It confused Iain Dale so much he judged Brown the winner. "I can't really understand the logic of Cameron asking about internal House of Commons issues when there are far more important things to talk about" blogged Iain.
The Telegraph's Iain Martin speculated that "Cameron was trying to suggest he is on the side of those with their noses pressed up against the Westminster window (voters) who dislike what they see going on inside in terms of expenses, high living generally and a refusal to listen to voters legitimate demands ... I suspect, however, that if it was shown to a focus group of civilians they would understand it much more easily." Exactly correct.
The regular Ashcroft financed deep polling asks questions not just about voting intentions (it examines more deeper qualitative lines of questioning about motivations) has revealed a watershed change in voter psychology. The general public now views politicians with contempt, two years of tales of sleaze since Cash for Honours up to the current fiddles by the Speaker, have shifted the public's attitude beyond merely seeing politicians on a par with estate agents. According to the polling "the public think politicians are either incompetent wankers or crooks" Guido was told by one Cameroon.
Michael Gove has been at the forefront of an internal debate about what to do in the face of what is not just voter disenchantment with politics, it is real voter disgust with politicians. Gove and Steve Hilton argue that politics as normal won't do, root and branch change is needed. Transparency, real change, not just lip service or an attempt to change perceptions is required. Osborne and Cameron, though more pragmatic, are sympathetic to the argument. It is one Dave himself made in a little noticed 2006 speech to the Power Inquiry:
Yesterday he got Brown to agree that MPs should no longer vote for their own pay rises, or gold plate their own pension arrangements. Cameron intends to push for more transparency and reform. The modernisers believe that they must inoculate themselves against the Westminster Disease by siding with the people. In America Obama and McCain are both successfully running against Washington. Cameron is going to try to run as the change candidate who stands against the shadowy, sleazy old ways of Westminster. He can talk the talk, can he walk the walk?
The Telegraph's Iain Martin speculated that "Cameron was trying to suggest he is on the side of those with their noses pressed up against the Westminster window (voters) who dislike what they see going on inside in terms of expenses, high living generally and a refusal to listen to voters legitimate demands ... I suspect, however, that if it was shown to a focus group of civilians they would understand it much more easily." Exactly correct.
The regular Ashcroft financed deep polling asks questions not just about voting intentions (it examines more deeper qualitative lines of questioning about motivations) has revealed a watershed change in voter psychology. The general public now views politicians with contempt, two years of tales of sleaze since Cash for Honours up to the current fiddles by the Speaker, have shifted the public's attitude beyond merely seeing politicians on a par with estate agents. According to the polling "the public think politicians are either incompetent wankers or crooks" Guido was told by one Cameroon.
Michael Gove has been at the forefront of an internal debate about what to do in the face of what is not just voter disenchantment with politics, it is real voter disgust with politicians. Gove and Steve Hilton argue that politics as normal won't do, root and branch change is needed. Transparency, real change, not just lip service or an attempt to change perceptions is required. Osborne and Cameron, though more pragmatic, are sympathetic to the argument. It is one Dave himself made in a little noticed 2006 speech to the Power Inquiry:
Public faith in our political institutions is draining away and being replaced by a progressive and debilitating alienation. I wish I could say that this is also a universally accepted truth among politicians. But, incredibly, there are still some people in Parliament who don't really get it.The speech went on to make a number of recommendations, such as increasing the number of free votes, something he urged Brown at PMQs to allow Labour MPs for the Lisbon Treaty vote. The speech also dealt directly with the sleaze dilemma of the political class:
Of course, they accept that things aren't great but there's also a sense that it's just a passing phase or a product of public annoyance with a particular government. That's part of the Westminster Disease.
You'd be amazed at the complacency that pervades the corridors of power. Put simply, despite paying lip service to the need to re-engage the public, the political class is in denial.
I believe it's time to wake up.
It's ridiculous that the final, indeed often the only, arbiter of ministerial probity is the Prime Minister. That system of self-regulation inspires little confidence. The only way we can start to repair the damage done to the reputation of politics is to insist on genuinely independent scrutiny from top to bottom. And that must include the Ministerial code.These are themes that Cameron plans to return to in the coming weeks as the repercussions from the expense scandals will continue to reverberate. Older politicians remember warily Back to Basics and are urging caution. Hague and Davis in particular see in the issue a Pandora's box out of which will fall many MPs on their own benches who have paid off multiple mortgages (and worse) courtesy of the taxpayer.
Yesterday he got Brown to agree that MPs should no longer vote for their own pay rises, or gold plate their own pension arrangements. Cameron intends to push for more transparency and reform. The modernisers believe that they must inoculate themselves against the Westminster Disease by siding with the people. In America Obama and McCain are both successfully running against Washington. Cameron is going to try to run as the change candidate who stands against the shadowy, sleazy old ways of Westminster. He can talk the talk, can he walk the walk?
100 comments:
Guido, at this rate you'll be in the Shadow Cabinet! If you genuinely really think that Mr Cameron, a former SPAD in a pretty crappy government, from a ruling elite background, surrounded by insiders like Osborne and the rest, intends to effect any meaningful change in the way politics in this country is conducted, you are naive indeed. Since I don't believe you are naive (and in fact have a very high opinion of your website and its general impact on public life) can you explain what's going on? Is this now conservativehome.com, or whatever it's called?
"Mission to explain", innit.
Don't worry, will get some totty pictures soon.
Good news! The Disraeli trump. About time too.
I certainly like the talk. But I fear he will not be allowed to walk the walk. A point about which, nobody wishes to be proved wrong, more then myself.
Cameron will have my vote. I will also deliver the propaganda and talk the talk on as many doorsteps as needed, on his behalf also.
But he will have little time to make a difference before the rot sets in again and the forces of disorder and chaos get a grip again.
So he must move fast on the first day. The first week will be possibly the most important in the history of not only here but the possibly the whole world.
If any single man has the natural gods given talent to do what must be done. Then I can plainly see David Cameron has all he needs of that at least. Whether he has the guts, will power, luck, or indeed will to do it at all, remains to be seen.
ATLAS shrugged and prayed for the salvation of his extremely heavy burden.
Fuck me, can't wait for Dave -call me Tony if it helps, I really don't mind - Cameron to get me all re-engaged with party politics. I hope his Mrs has got shit loads of money to send up to me in Scotland because that's the only thing that'll do it.
Modernisers ? Don't make me laugh. These fuckers get more feudal every day. All of them. Go back to the fucking gunpowder idea, that's the ticket. Fuck all this parliamentary shit. Mever mind modernising them unto transparency. Blow the fuckers up.
love from stanislav
clegg wants to blow the lot away by joing up to the so much more honest EU , malfunction malfunction , EU is more corrupt .so hes shot his load hasnt he. and now resorts to describing methods as archaic and procedures antique.
well mr clegg , you appear to draw your very nice salary from the crap place in which you sit and supposidly work for us. Ambitious rhetoric of a moderniser that has had only the experience of EU democracy. perhaps you wish to be king without being prince first !!
why i am cross with you , is that withing those traditions which so so clearly want to sweep away , is a discipline that asks its members to behave properly towards the institution , which should in theory work for its people. the traditions also remind people of democracys long hsitory and progress.
given that we are now witnessing corruption with the EU on a truely massive scale , just what is so bloody good about it , other than being a big bank , it has promoted some catastrophic polices including making bio fuel from food. given kinnock and mandelson have been unelected and running it dont see the things as bent as mandelsons rock mortgage .
whilst david cameron may be trying to grasp the nettle that others dare not , at least he has listened to the public .
labour is covering its own sleaze problems , to tories trying to clean up theres.
if dave gets it right we might get the parliment back working , and send the commies back to the ice age. just need mps to realise that they have failed us.
as for tebbits attack on the cult of blairism , he may be right on what nu labour have done to decency , but it seems a bit early to be revising hsitory , especially when it isnt quite clear to most of the public just how much they have lied and corrupted everything , they know somthings wrong but cant quite see how the dumbing down was related to there relationship with business and the EU sell off .
the red despot spotter maintains , that nu labour have lied , they have corrupted and created a dangerous and malevolent society and a dysfunctional parliment. they have also cheated the people out of there future prosperity , by waste and a bust ecnomics pyramid scheme . remember no more boom or bust eh gordon remember that one .
the public do !!
This blog should be renamed Cynic Central.
Just for once Guido tries to be positive, and the lynch mob moves in. I guess it's hard for folk to understand how he can be the top poacher and now wants to play head game-keeper.
Politics is now 'positive messages only allowed' as demonstrated by Senator Obama.
This will be tough for Mr Fawkes. But he should persevere.
Cant really see anything changing with cameron, snouts will still be in the trough cos promises have to be kept the only plus side is snotty will be unemployed and sulking in jockland.
I would really like to vote for cam he is the best chance to unseat mr bean but I wont vote for a party that wants to be in the eu.
"He can talk the talk, can he walk the walk?"...
Most senior politicians would say whatever they think that the electorate want to hear to get their hands on the levers of power. Once they have their sticky mitts on the levers they tend to forget the past and concentrate on the things that really matter, to them.
I doubt Dave is any different. The explosive solution to all this might cause a bit of a re-think. I wonder why nobody has thought of that before!
Only very slightly o/t but over at
http://www.parade.com/dictators/2008/
you can vote for the world's worst dictator.
Disappointing not to see Broon's name on the list so I requested it to be added. If anough of us do, maybe it will be.
As most of the 'jokes' here are anything but, I thought I'd share this one.
Apologies for the Yankee tone but it's too early for me to translate it to English.
Two friends are sitting in their favorite bar watching the pretty women that come in, and rating them based on the traditional 1 to 10 method.
A redhead walks in and one of the guys catches his breath and says, "There's an 8 if ever I saw one!"
As his friend checks out the woman, they hear an old man nearby say "One."
Soon a brunette enters and walks by the bar. The other guy offers, "Now there's a 9 for sure! Look at those legs!"
The old man again butts into the conversation and says, "Two."
The two friends look at each other puzzled and choose to ignore the old dude.
Just then, in comes a blond of both their dreams. She is stacked from head to toe and dressed to kill. The two high-five each other and simultaneously agree, "That's a 10! Damn!"
They then look over at the old codger and await his comment. The old guy watches the young woman walk on by and sit down in a booth. "Three!" he nods to himself and raises his glass in a salute in their direction.
The two disgusted friends walk down to where the old gentlemen is sitting. "We've been sitting here all day watching beautiful women walk into this place and we agree that they are at the top of the scale, but all you can do is say, 1, 2, or 3. What kind of rating is that?"
The old guy takes another sip, sits his draft down, and turns to the men and says, "Well, you young whippersnappers, for your information, I use the 'Budweiser Method' of rating women."
"The Budweiser Method?" says one, "what the hell is that?"
"Well sir, take that last one for instance. I gave her a 3. That means it would take 3 Clydesdales to pull her off my face!"
Posted February 27, 2008 8:00 AM
DC could just be the leader that this country needs. If he can resolve the EU issue, which is central to returning democracy to this country, then he may well achieve something truly great.
He will get my vote - go for it DC.
fine words GF.
What about having referendums on the big issues. Capital punishment, The EU, Imigration etc. as the Swiss have. This is the only way they will rgain voters interest. but they wont.
They are all only interested in power for its own sake.
Wasn't there once another young, photogenic leader of a political party who informed the electorate that he was different and the existing government was dithering and mired in sleaze but he was bringing a different kind of politics and after all he was a "straight kinda guy" and on their side ?
"He can talk the talk, can he walk the walk?"
Heffer, in an article last week described Cameron as 'an act' a pretty succinct observation I'd say.
Let's not forget that 'Call Me Dave's' idea of integrity is to demonstrate his greenness by cycling to work followed behind by his chauffeur and car with his sandwiches.
To mix a metaphor, I'd suggest that this chameleon would have to change his spots pretty extensively if he is to persuade the public that he and his mates are not every bit as bad as the rest of the mendacious porkers.
Peter Hitchins is right. The Useless Tories need to lose the next election and be swept away and replaced by men of integrity and principle.
Where are the Aristocracy when you need them? Couldn't a 'wallet' of rich landed gentry get together and form the Noblesse Oblige Party (or similar)? I'd vote for them.
In the meantime, it's UKIP for me.
Some bureaucrats are as bad as our crap politicians.
The Charity Commission - for example - have been sitting on The Smith Institute investigation longing than it took the allies to clear Western Europe of the Hun.
What ARE they waiting for?
"In 2005 Blair had the votes of only 21.6 per cent of the electorate. With the poisonous tree of Blairism planted in the shadow cabinet, where can the other 78.4 per cent turn?"
A quote from Lord Tebbit today in the Telegraph about the ''worship'' of Tony Bliar on the tory front bench.
Where can the rest of us turn?
I am with stanislav on this one, blow the fuckers up.
Walking the walk will make Cameron a hate-figure in Parliament if he pulls it off, but his need to distance himself from the Labour Party and appear as a real alternative is too strong to ignore such a great opportunity to embarrass the government.
Looks like tebbit and brown have something in common.
They both detest Blair.
The problem which I would guess Cameron has identified is that if the people hold our law-making institution in contempt, over time this contempt will extend to contempt for the laws that it makes. We already have a situation where many of the laws now being passed are aimed at forcing changes in behaviour of significant chunks of the population (such as banning smoking in pubs) and/or difficult to enforce without the co-operation of the people being legislated against (foxes still being hunted (allegedly) all over Britain, 3 years after fox-hunting was banned).
The other kind of crap legislation comes from our own Govt trying to pass off EU directives as their own work - the process which gave us Home Inspection Packs and fortnightly bin collections. I don't see this changing under any party, because for a politician, admitting that you have handed over a large chunk of your law-making powers to the EU is like taking out a full-page ad in the Telegraph to announce that you have a very small cock, and can't get it up. So it isn't going to happen, and Parliament will continue to pass laws which make absolutely no sense to anyone outside Brussels.
A government can just about get away with this kind of stuff if the people have absolute rock-solid respect for the legislators, or if the government can construct an effective, repressive police state to keep everyone under tight control. Our beloved Govt is trying to go down the repressive police state route, but being Labour, they are making a total balls-up of it. And whatever Cameron may be, he isn't an authoritarian.
So if this country is to avoid a total collapse of law and order, Parliament has to find a way of regaining the respect of the people, and it has to do it quickly. This is not a time for pissing about with long-winded reviews, commissions or other jobs-for-the-boys talking shops which take two years to produce a report which recommends doing about half of bugger-all.
Brown will dither and delay on this issue, which gives Cameron the opportunity to put forward plans for serious reform of the way Parliament, and especially the Commons, operates. I hope he takes that opportunity, otherwise we are all fucked. (Except for people who live in very remote parts of the country and have lots of guns. They will be fine.)
There is a way to rid the Tory Party of the Old Pigs - quietly whisper in their ears that unless they step down at the next GE, not only their huge expenses but also their various pecadilloes will be assiduously leaked to the media.
Patrick McLoughlin needs to sharpen his act and ditch some of his Deputy Whips.
According to the polling "the public think politicians are either incompetent wankers or crooks" Guido was told by one Cameroon.
This wouldn’t be the same general public that attacks paediatricians, wails at princess’s funerals and scrambles across beaches looking for washed up nappies would it?
Mmmmm……
You mean the very same people who can’t be arsed to vote but hate politicians and are in constant search of a free lunch? Ok I think I know who you’re talking about.
Not those giving citizens who protest against their local teams board because they don’t want to pay £100k a week to some adolescent monkey who’d probably be digging holes in the road if he hadn’t been blessed with a good left foot?
Right, I get yer.
The point is - We are all to blame for current state of politics in this country.
Now I’m going to have Radox bath so go fuck yourself.
Ms Eileen Critchley
27 Argentinasaurus Avenue
Little Hampton
Most importantly, he can talk and walk, unlike Brown who can do neither.
It's going to be a long haul to the next election, while the Tories try to produce substance without actually laying out detailed policies which Labour can steal within minutes.
Traditional supporters (including self-opinionated twits like Heffer) need to shut up and get on board. Every fault line will be pounced on and exploited.
That's today's sermon over.
I have come to the reluctant conclusion that the only way that Parliament can be reconnected with the voters by the deselection of all sitting MPs and the introduction of term limits for all MPs.
My MP is Michael Ancrum, a man I campaigned for in South Edinburgh in 1979. I have always had the deepest respect for him, but when even he can stick his nose in the trough and claim money for painting his home in Wiltshire, then I think it is time for a total clean out.
However, how can voters get bedded in politicos to give up their perks? I doubt we can, so somehow we need to found a new political party whose function is to look after the people of the country rather than the politicians and beaurocrats.
I think your article sums up public opinion very well. (Thinking opinion that is: about 50% are somnolent when politics are mentioned).
I share those opinions.
A big of downsizing central government would not go amiss: like halving it.
Let Local Government govern: and if it cocks it up, no bailouts.
About time we jailed a few MPs pour encourager les autres: Conway will do for starters.
guido,
I see broons kindergarten has opened early this morning. people detached from reality!
Cameron has, at last, realised the utter contempt politicians in general, but brown and his fourth rate government in particular, are held.
In relation to the charity commission when suzy leather was put there it was to do broons dirty work...investigate her background. quango to quango to quango.
nice lass but as dim as a Toc H lamp!
Dear Mr Tapestry
Its not cynicism- a sneering disbelief in human goodness - but, quite obviously, a reaction TO cynicism.
The cynic wouldn't bother, what your read here is largely a howl of outrage at the cynicism of others, passionate and angry, vengeful, even. Deplore that, if you will, but its true authors are those - like feisty pretend socialist baroness, luvvy and pretend lawyer, Helena Kennedy and her preposterous and impudent Power Inquiry - who would simply try to make more fragrant the shit they dump in our faces.
You eat Cameron's shit, if you have the appetite; most here will throw it back in his face, its not cynicism, just mental hygiene.
love from stanislav
I agree with every word you say, but please don't call me a moderniser. The 'appeal of the new' is a most desperate line of argument propagated by the risible Platform 10 and their ilk. Politicians who get what you are saying (and got it long before Cameron did some polling) include Richard Shepherd and John Redwood. They know that politicians are held in contempt and what needs to be done about it. They are the flipside to Tom Watson, Dave McLean and Gorbals Mick.
Anon 8:59 reeks of a typical NuLabourite - rude, contemptuous of the electorate and almost stereotypically arrogant.
Wouldn't suprise me one bit to hear that Number One Incompetent Wanker (Ed Balls to the rest of us) penned that.
Let's be realistic. We are never going to get perfection. We have a government and PM who are not only utterly corrupt but also almost totally incompetent. Cameron has many faults but he is never going to be anywhere near as bad as the current bunch of brigands who for ten years have dragged this country down into the gutter.
It is crucial for the survival of this country that we get rid of the Labour government as soon as possible. Another five years of Brown and it wil be far too late to repair the damage that has already been done.
The Tories are the only party who can deliver this and we have to support them despite any doubts or misgivings we may have about Cameron.
Leave Heffer, Peter Hitchens, etc to their fantasies and support the only party that can defeat odious Brown. The Tory Party.
Re Dickie sheet metal - exactly.
But it is not just parliament that is held in contempt, it is government. The inadequacies of MP's have trickled down into the Civil Service - most probably due to its politicisation under Bliar - and the public lump the whole infrastructure into one mass.
Cameron has to start with parliament and then tackle the Civil Service as well.
He could start with the pension schemes. As I have commented alsewehere no civil servant in effect pays any tax. All the PAYE they pay is swallowed up by the suppport payments made to their pension scheme by the employers - the Government. The non-state employed public 'know' this, but do not yet appreciate that it is a problem. Nor that it is symptomatic of a totalitarian approach.
As others have commented, the leaking away of the sovereignty of Westminster to Brussels has contributed hugely to this problem. Dave must also reclaim this sovereignty. This need not mean leaving the EU, but it would mean taking a very hard line on how EU rules are applied here. Tackled properly this may well engender a large EU wide following among the public, but not, repeat not, from the apparatchiks.
And that is Dave's problem. The bureaucrats who will stand to lose most by this process.
DC is far too late with the realisation that the country holds politicoes in total and complete contempt.
The only way to restore the people's faith is for an augean stable clean out, loads of blood and gore with public executions on prime time TV. We need a modern day Oliver Cromwell, a night of the knives and a damn fine stalinite progrom.
Ahhhh deep joy and hope.
To walk the walk Dave needs to make it clear that all his party have to clean up their act as of now. Publish his MP's expense details and be damned. If it needs some more "Conway" moments pour encouragez les autres then so be it.
Only then can he get on the offensive and really drive home to the electorate that this current shower are the most corrupt and disgusting vermin ever to strut the public stage.
I would love him to do it, but I'm not betting the farm on it.
I agree with Stanislav and Penfold, the only way to change the current status quo is by force.
While Dave "Dave" Cameron seems to be slightly aware of current feelings, I honestly think he's underestimated them. As more of the population start to feel the downturn in the economy, I think more people will be up for revolution, not evolution.
If it were possible to poll the entire country and ask if politicians were "incompetent wankers", "crooks" or "both", I suspect the majority would go for "both"
It cannot be overstated enough. Cameron has found the pulse and is right. Yesterday he asked the questions that the little voting people wanted to be asked.
The people are sick to the back teeth with the situation AND the sleaze. It has gone beyond "all politicians are bent, but what can we do about it" there is REAL hatred out here in the real world of normal voting people.
All they want are our votes, they will promise anything to get them, but we know that those promises are a sham. Once in power they just do what they fucking like, charge and claim what they fucking like and demand we thank them very kindly for shitting in our faces.
Mr Cameron you impressed me yesterday, bravo!
Right the basis for 'swing voters' in how they vote boils down to this lot are less corrupt/worse than the last lot. Therefore, the 1992-97 Major government was thought of as 'corrupt'; The 1997-? Bliar/Broon government is thought of as 'extremely corrupt'; doesn't bode well for it's replacement!
I recently saw this:-
http://www,angelfire.com/realm3/accord
I looks a bit muddled at first but there is some interesting stuff mixed in with it.Just what we are looking for.
David Cameron can not only walk and talk - he can do both at the same time! He looks as though he knows what a shower is for and uses it regularly. He doesn't bite his fingernails. He doesn't pick his nose on the Opposition Front Bench in full view of TV cameras.
Compares favourably with Gordon Brown................
GF wrote "Hague and Davis in particular see in the issue a Pandora's box out of which will fall many MPs on their own benches who have paid off multiple mortgages (and worse) courtesy of the taxpayer"
To which I reply "tough".
Get rid of the parasites.
I always wondered why many Conservative MPs bothered and why they did become MPs . Now we know. I think a few jail terms for fraud would go down well with the elctorate.
Politically IF this is so, DC has a choice: expose it himself or wait for someone else to do it.
He'd gain more brownie points with the electorate if he did the former.
As for arguments about Brussels, that's an excuse.. not a reason. Just because we gold plate Brussels law .. don't blame Brussels blamd the HOC for not scrutinising the law properly.
The more I read and see, the more incompetent I realise our MPs are. irrespective of party.
Lets try a little test:
1] 45% of the electorate want abortion banned. Which of the two main parties supports a ban on abortion?
2] 52% of the electorate want Britain to pull out of the EU. Which of the two main parties supports Britain coming out of the EU?
3] 75% of the electorate want immigration stopped. Which of the two main parties supports such a ban?
4] 75% of the electorate believe life imprisonment should mean life imprisonment? Which of the two main parties have this as a manifesto commitment?
5] 51% of the electorate believe that serious murder cases should attract the death penalty. Which of the two main parties supports such a policy?
Lets face it, neither of the two main parties supports policies that large numbers of the public agree with and care passionately about. We are supposedly living in a democracy, but it is hardly representative. All policy is aimed at the Richard Briers types in 3 bed semis with a Ford Focus outside that are of average intelligence and don't believe in anything very much at all. Tomorrow's policies are yesterday's policies carefully fine tuned to put a smile on the face of the middle ground. Thus the nation is run by weak-willed dimwits by proxy. Drug dealing is rife, crime is rife and becoming ever more extreme, immigration is totally out of control and becoming impossible to resolve, 50% of parliamentary time is taken up with daft EU legislation invented by failed Spanish politicians. It is little wonder that politicians are a bunch of creeps. Even if they want to make Britain a better place their hands are tied by the need to pander to the middle-ground. Consequently those outside the middle-ground are losing patience with politicians and ultimately with democracy.
But crunch time is coming. Britain is about to enter its worst economic crisis in modern times. We will struggle just to import the food and energy we need. Gordon Brown will be ousted from power but Cameron will do little better in the face of impossible problems. Unemployment will rise to unprecendented levels. Crime will explode. Civil disorder will increase. People will turn on the "outsiders" in the immigrant community. People will lose faith completely in democracy and the establishment. What happened in Germany after the Great Depression will happen here, because we learned our history but never understood it.
Get ready to run.
so dave has just found out that the public are not impressed by the turds in westminster.........wake up you fool!none of the parties reflect what the voters want.and as they waste more of OUR money and hand our freedoms to the EU then we have no-one to vote for....
we have no voice-we have no choice....cons are supposed to be THE OPPOSITION.yet they are pathetic and almost defeatist ..acepting most of liebor policies........if he really wanted to make a change then all the tory pigs will have to be culled too...this will not go down well with the freeloaders but we need integrity.....if the tories dont have the balls to make a clean sweep then they will be viewed as just as corrupt as the liebor crooks......time to be a MAN dave
bofl
Surely Lansley's statement proves without doubt, that the Tories are now a Socialist Party: nothing will change.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/528196/lansley-splashes-the-cash.thtml
comments guido please!!
Good analysios Guido
"...... can he walk the walk?"
Big mountain to climb in my book.
Getting trust back from much of the electorate following the Blair/ Campbell disaster (fixing todays problems with tomorrows headlines and the ensuing/reannounced "initiative")will be difficult and require "real" change.
Net result of Blair/Cam - Unenforced/unenforceable legislation (eg PPERA 2000) and unworkable regulation regimes(eg Banks NR shambles & todays Network Rail fine is a prime example - consumer stuffed - Treasury gets £14m!)
Heavyweight solutions required - and Parliamentary self regulation is a complete non starter - real enforced regulation is needed and updating of most Parliamntary Proceedures eg no way to get rid of Martin is a complete nonsense.
If this doesn't happen I and many others will have to go for the the Stanislav/Fawkes option!
It was a very odd performance from Cameron, no papers in his hand and a soft innocent tone.
Yesterday he was possibly continuing to sow the seeds of the idea that he 'stands against the shadowy, sleazy old ways of Westminster' without being too explicit about it.
I'm not sure how credible people will see it, as you say he will need to walk the walk to convince voters.
An article in the FT today by Jonathan Guthrie seems to sum up the sea change in attitude which Cameron is picking up on with his Pmq questions.
UK’s ‘coping classes’ feel financial pinch
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/54c0a656-e589-11dc-9334-0000779fd2ac.html
It suggests that people in the 'middle' feel hard done by not because they are actually less well off but because others including the political class are doing relatively so much better than they are. Whether that be politicians using allowances to buy houses, non-doms not paying their fair share of taxes or people on benefits getting more but doing nothing in return. These are perceptions but they are extremely powerful ones that shape people's 'motivations'. I suspect the Tories deep polls are picking this up and among my friends in the 35 - 45 category struggling to pay a mortage and find a decent school for their kids (or pay school fees) is a deep sense of disatisfaction that the 'middle' class is being dumped upon from all sides.
Cameron is right to pick up on it -and indeed the IHT reform announced by Osborne also tapped into this rich sense of injustice that the 'middle class feel about being taxed and treated unfairly when they are working ever harder for ever less return and only just 'coping' not living the comfortable secure life they feel thay have worked hard for.
Jonathan Guthrie's article sums it up nicely with this sentence:
In this context the term [coping class] makes more sense as the disposable incomes of better-off Britons have indeed been falling in relative terms. Once the very poor are excluded, households towards the top of the earnings range saw the lowest disposable income growth between 1997 and 2006, according to the IFS. The biggest gains were in the upper 5 per cent. In other words, the working class have been catching up with the bourgeoisie, who have been outpaced by the wealthy.
what the hell is Dave gonna do when he happily invites the EU to shove their arm so far up his arse that you can see their fingers at the back of his throat everytime he opens his mouth!
sorry but if you want to destroy my democracy by backing the EU to destroy it, then you wont be getting my vote.
Cameron - talks like blair, looks like blair, smells like blair!
10.03am back cameron or get brown: spot on! My enemy's enemy is my friend. The priority is to get rid of Brown and New Labour - at any cost.
The worst of Cameron is nowhere near as bad as the best of Brown. Those who lump them together are deluding themselves. Brown also has a cabinet full of lunatics ready to inflict more pain and misery on the long suffering people of England.
I agree with lola at 10.05 that the politicisation of the civil service (and local government) is an issue. New Labour has emboldened these "public servants" to throw their weight about, make political statements (especially the police who should not be publically demanding a national DNA database) and engage in political media-savvy stunts. How much of this is due to the insidious Common Purpose I don't know but I'm sure that the creep of bureaucracy and nannyism is EU inspired if not EU led. The craven submission of Europeans to bureaucracy and dictatorship is not consistent with the history and heritage of free Englishmen. We need to reclaim that freedom from those who threaten it, by force if necessary, as bequeathed to us by the Bill of Rights 1689.
Can Brown walk and chew gum, though?
It's really not necessary for Cameron to "walk the walk". All he has to do at this stage is put up some decent talk. If he persuades enough of the electorate then he'll be obliged to "walk the walk". In any event, the very fact that it would be a different party in power will lead to changes, be they perceived or actual. That is one of the reasons why Blair was elected in the first place.
Brown, for all his comments about his 'vision' is recognised as a continuation - and acceleration - of the NuLab train wreck. So all the boy Dave has to do is accentuate the difference that the Conservatives could make. On balance he's doing OK.
@ dickie the sheet metal worker
I agree but I suggest there is also another factor.
People have to have information to enable them to form political or any kind of views.
This information largely comes from TV and the radio and to a small degree the press.
The press obviously is very influential with its own readers, but you choose a paper because you know its political line, so their influence among uncommitted or floating or don’t care voters is relatively much smaller than TV and radio news which just about everyone watches/listens to.
TV and radio news therefore reaches a far wider audience. I am open to correction here but it is probable that some 90% of people receive ALL their political information from the TV and radio - dominated by the BBC.
The power and influence of the BBC news department is now enormous. When reading a paper you have to be alert, but when watching TV news you are passive, receptive, in a mild form of trance - and this allows the mind to be influenced even more by what you see and hear and how it is presented - with a sneer or with enthusiasm and support. The technical skill of these news programmes is now astonishing, compared to even 20 years ago. The constant and repetitive presentation of news to fit an agenda is a mild form of brainwashing.
The staff of BBC news are therefore in a position of colossal power without historical parallel. We have had democracy for quite a while in this country and constitutional checks and balances eventually evolved to check most abuses of the political process. However, TV news has developed so quickly in historical terms that no constitutional mechanisms have evolved to control the appalling manipulation of the political process that we are seeing as a result.
MPs are now totally subservient to the superstars of BBC news and the BBC politics programmes. They wag their tails and smile in the face of arrogant abuse from the interviewer or presenter - and then go and collect their appearance money. They cannot say anything that is not BBC approved, or they can expect sharp hostility, so they don’t. They have all been seduced by the fame and money that only the TV can give.
The BBC are the real kingmakers in our “democracy”. And the truly terrible fact is that the staff of the BBC news department are totally committed to NuLab.
Anyone who denies this is either lying deliberately or simply does not know what they are talking about.
The connections between Labour and the BBC are legendary - http://bbcpioneers.blogspot.com/
The shameless daily manipulation and distortion of the news is a democratic outrage. NO opposition to Labour is allowed to function properly. Cameron has to appear to follow most of the BBC’s political agenda, or they will not allow him any platform at all.
These BBC news staff people are NOT ELECTED, are unrepresentative, nominated and self-selecting. In effect they appointed themselves. They have hijacked the air waves. The BBC news department has become an intensely dangerous and mind-controlling monster.
These BBC news staff people are the Storm Troopers of Brown and his appalling gang. Without their help and protection, Brown would 35 points behind in the polls.
The staff of the BBC are strongly in favour of the EUSSR - and that is why we have the problem now - no effective opposition to it is allowed. Anyone who disagrees is portrayed as insane.
I love my country and I am deeply sad at the devastation caused by the unholy and incestuous relationship between NuLabour and the BBC news department. At present they CANNOT be beaten.
If anyone is interested in changing this situation, do not rely on the next election, but force a complete reform of the way the BBC news department operates or close them down and allow many private news companies to use the digital broadcasting infrastructure to provide simultaneous news programmes so we can CHOOSE - and so that no one can have such monopoly power ever again..
This is Labour’s weak spot. This is the way you get rid of Labour. Reform the TV news programmes.
Sorry this was such a long bloody post.
Back to Basics 2 - brilliant. Now we get to find all the skeletons in the closets of this generation of Tories, while they pursue an argument on Europe that only divides their own party.
Fucking idiots stamping on the same rake. Can't wait to hear who's been up to the nuts in coke and rent boys.
Real Schadenfreude said...
Lets try a little test:
1] 45% of the electorate want abortion banned. Which of the two main parties supports a ban on abortion?
2] 52% of the electorate want Britain to pull out of the EU. Which of the two main parties supports Britain coming out of the EU?
3] 75% of the electorate want immigration stopped. Which of the two main parties supports such a ban?
4] 75% of the electorate believe life imprisonment should mean life imprisonment? Which of the two main parties have this as a manifesto commitment?
5] 51% of the electorate believe that serious murder cases should attract the death penalty. Which of the two main parties supports such a policy?
10:54 AM, February 28, 2008
you just described the BNP manifesto!
"Michael Gove has been at the forefront of an internal debate about what to do in the face of what is not just voter disenchantment with politics, it is real voter disgust with politicians."
How about slashing taxes, smashing the welfare state and generally getting the government to leave us alone? Then we'd have nothing to complain about because there's less they could meddle with.
If they've only found this out and needed focus groups to do so, it only proves how completely detached they are and this PR excercise wil go the way of the inner tosser.
Still not getting my vote because they simply don't get it in any way, shape or form.
Guido you're so much better when you tounge isn't up Camerons arse. Stick to what you do best and leave this crap to conservative home. (Think of this as your own focus group)
Real schadenfreude Where are these poll results from?
1)I thought it was nearer to 10-20%. 45% want a reduction in the number of weeks after conception that a baby can be aborted (although I thought that figure was over 50%).
2)I recall that figure was from 2001. Since then it has, unfortunately, decreased.
3)75% certainly want immigration reduced but stopped totally?
4)Sounds about right, haven't seen any conflicting polls
5)Only 51%? I remember it used to be a lot more although I haven't seen any recent polls on this issue so the figure could have been reduced.
No hand-wringing and pious sentimentality, Guido.....the only message the pigs understand is another head on the Parliament spike a la Hain, Conway.
What are the cops doing with Abrahams, Hain etc.,?
How Dave could start his first week as PM:
1) Declare amnesty on MPs expenses for the previous Government.
2) Require receipts for all new expenses.
3) Announce that UK will pay no more contributions to the EU until the books are signed off by the auditors.
4) Root and branch review of quangos - with the aim of reducing them considerably - necessary functions to be moved back to central/local government using resources freed up by...
5) Radical overhaul of central government giving up all but necessary tasks, taking on ex quango work where justifed.
6) Setting out minimum duties for local government: this will be reflected in the 'basic' rate, with a 'voted' rate topping up local coffers for 'desirable extras' which could be campaigned for by local political parties.
Not bad for a weeks work. Although it would probably take the full term to achieve, at least a new direction set for government and Parliament to serve the electors rather than to parasitise them.
Dave ' Boy Green' Cameron can get my vote tomorrow if he pledges to withdraw from the EU. He will not and I have been informed of such by no less than Mr John Redwood.
Until then, it is UKIP.
The contempt arises from their obsession with PR and Spin which Cameron personifies.
If politicians don't want to engage on substantive policies, and spend all theri time as self important prs, then what do they expect?
I reckon the "Westminster Village" denizens are behaving exactly like the print unions and their members before Rupert Murdoch gave them strong taste of shoe pie by inter alia shifting operations from Fleet Street to Wapping (ably supported by the Maggon, of course).
In Italy, political power resides in Rome, financial power in Milan, thereby spreading the economic benefits more evenly geographically.
Shifting parliament somewhere else would thus have a potential double-benefit - an Augean stables-like clearout, and less economic benefit concentrated in the principality of London. My suggestion would be to move it, probably to Birmingham.
The problem with Quangos, is that they are a nice and efficient means of spending tax payers money. Their is little to no external audit, entirely unaccountable and the board 100% dependent on the patronage of the relevant Government Minister.
Magic!!!
I have rejoined the Tory fold after 10 wasted years in UKIP.
Keeping Tories out by vote splitting will only prolong this failed Labour Government!
I am backing Dave as this country needs a change.
Tuscan Tony. Why not move the powerbase to Brussels? We could do it bit by bit over the years so no one realises we are doing it.
Discoverjoys 11:55
What on earth is Nikki Gavron to do if you fuck the Quangoes?
anon 12.02
'No less than John Redwood'
Christ - him and UKIP. You are scraping the barrel. Stop hanging round with these thin-lipped racists, and support a proper party.
Cameron has already proved he can walk and talk at the same time- in fact it was this skill that won him the leadership. However, he is still talking bollocks.
The Tory benches will be as empty as the Labour ones if every MP on the fiddle was brought to book. Its easy for posh Dave to take the moral high groud though as hes loaded, what about those poor plebs scraping by on a mere 60-odd k a year plus expenses. We should be starting up a collection for them rather than chastising the poor blighters.
I believe Steve Davis will voice over future Gordo Ads to make them more 'lively'.
Guido,with the availablity of 'voice stress analysers' as used over the phone by insurance co.s.How about using one to monitor ministers appearing in front of commitees and publishing the results here?Should be a fun item?Really we need lie-detectors in the commitee rooms themselves but I can't see it happening soon(!).
I disagree entirely - parliament has evolved into a FIRST CLASS SERVICE PROVIDER for wealthy individuals and groups who wish to purchase :-
- Planning Permissions for major developements like Shopping Centres, Casinos etc
- Wars in the Middle East
- Unlimited Immigration
- Beneficial Laws for a particular Race/Religous group
- Detrimental Laws against the English
- Ermine
etc
The only improvement which might be considered is a tariff system to e.g enable voters to club together to acquire their own policy imperatives e.g.
Infrastructure Developement - 1% of first year profit
War likely to result in the deaths of 100s of English people (deaths of foreigners i.e 'terrorists' are free as are materiel costs) - £1M
War likely to result in the deaths of 1000s of English people - £10M
Unlimited Immigration for one parliament - £2M
Law beneficial to a religious/racial group - £500,000
Law detrimental to English - £50,000
Ermine - £1M
etc
Guido,
This is all very interesting, and you've stimulated a debate in the comments section which is probably more interesting than any other media-hosted political debate going on. But...
I have the highest respect for you, but please can you keep focused at throwing shit at the Brownies? As soon as you stop, everyone stops.
What has happened to the Sith and that Deborah wotsit bint? If you don't keep the snot-gobbler's corruption, and that of his fellow nasal-excavators, in the public eye, no-one else will. Everyone will start to forget.
Even worse than the Sith, what is happening to that nice Mr Abrahams' money? If you look at the blogs or the MSM, that issue seems to have simply gone away.
Gay Gordo told us months ago that the gifts of money were plainly illegal and would be paid back. In fact I think the wanker even said it HAD BEEN paid back! No one (BBC? ha ha) ever asked him who he was going to pay it back to - the person who had 'given' it, or Mr. Abrahams?
I think this issue in itself would be quite tricky for the snotgobbler to answer - after all if he returned it to the innocent dupes whose names were on the donation, the legal donors, he would be 'doing' Labour's third largest donor (Abrahams) out of 'his' cash, yet if a donation is received from Mrs. Snooks, what procedure would the Labour Party follow to make sure it returned the money to the 'correct' person? Suppose I, for example, was to claim that I, not Mr. Abrahams, had given Mrs. Snooks the money to pass on to the snotgobbler? How would Labour be sure they were returning the money to the right person?
Please, please, pursue these scum some more. The analysis you write is extremely good, but we need you to bring them down. Remember the domino graphic you published? You've got the perma-tanned creep Hain's scalp. please can you get another one asap.
No one is happy with the current state of affairs. We are represented by the lowest and most contemptible set of bought men, and women, that have ever sat in our houses of government. The nation is now a byword for the derogation of it's people and their culture.
The government has now moved from representing and leading us to spying upon and bullying us. Truly we are no long subjects nor even citizens, rather we are farmed for our tax revenues as cattle are farmed for meat and milk - we have allowed and co-operated in this process and should hang our heads in shame for the betrayal of all those who sacrificed so much for us.
As suggested here we need a party we can all vote for that is not part of the problem - in every constituency we should register an alternative (None Of The Above Party ?) whose only purpose is to wrest power from the current political class and rebuild democracy in the interest of the nation as a whole before disbanding itself.
Mr Tony Cameron has paid someone a lot of money to talk to voters on his behalf, which tells you almost all you need to know about his party.
The message has come back that we hate politicians. Well, they are remunerated superbly for fucking up the country and when a warmongering liar left the Commons for the last time Mr Tony Cameron stood up, along with the rest of his party, and cheered the cunt to the rafters.
Voting is no good. Mr Tony Cameron offers so little opposition there is no doubt he will pursue exactly the same policies as Stalin McSporran if he ever becomes PM.
I agree with Stanislav. Blow the fuckers up before it is too late.
Tuscan wrote
Shifting parliament somewhere else would thus have a potential double-benefit - an Augean stables-like clearout, and less economic benefit concentrated in the principality of London. My suggestion would be to move it, probably to Birmingham."
NO Tuscan-still too near southland!
If it moves, I would suggest Newcastle-NO further South if it is to make any difference at all!
Errmm
Politicians ARE Wankers & Crooks.
Why vote them into a job?
Only those with the intellect of a retarded amoeba continue to do it.
Wankers voting for Wankers umm that sums it up pretty well.
@ girth 12:14
So John Redwood and UKIP are racists are they?
Because Redwood criticises the EUSSR and UKIP want to leave the EUSSR? Does that make them racists?
There is no debate with EU fanatics - they just abuse you.
You abusive imbecile. Sod off back to Labour where you belong.
Discoveredjoys wrote
How Dave could start his first week as PM:
1) Declare amnesty on MPs expenses for the previous Government.
2) Require receipts for all new expenses.
3) Announce that UK will pay no more contributions to the EU until the books are signed off by the auditors.
4) Root and branch review of quangos - with the aim of reducing them considerably - necessary functions to be moved back to central/local government using resources freed up by...
5) Radical overhaul of central government giving up all but necessary tasks, taking on ex quango work where justifed.
6) Setting out minimum duties for local government: this will be reflected in the 'basic' rate, with a 'voted' rate topping up local coffers for 'desirable extras' which could be campaigned for by local political parties."
Just of interest, the SNP govt have already put into action your above listed points 2, 4 and 5.
Just shows what you can do when you have a govt who actually CARES about its constituents!
The best thing would be if, when bicycling for the planet, instead of having his valet travelling behind him in a limo, Dave - call me Tony, if you like - Cameron made him, the servant, also ride a bike, a cheaper one, carrying his master's change of clothes in panniers; there could be a further bicycle behind that, carrying some champagne and oysters and diet coke and Pringles for the servants. A convoy of cycling servants, that would resonate with Everyman. Cure him of his dreadful apathy. How can a chap rule when people have seen right through him? Don't know why we allow them to vote for us really.
To avoid those telling, embarrassing tv moments which reveal him as just as cheesy and photo opportunistic as Playground Brown, only even more maladroit, he could wear whichever are the current charity wristbands all up his arm and then when the moment was right he could take off his jacket, roll up his sleeves - revealing wristbands from War on Want, Save the Children, Bono for Pope, Nutscape Mental Nurses4U and Tory Cyclists for a Better Planet - smile at the cameras and start doing the washing-up of some poor, non-Oxbridge person living in a freezing slum surrounded by homicidal yoof and indifferent cops.
A bit like that Jesus fella, washing the feet of the Underclass, only plates and cups. I betcha Jesus was a tory, really.
Fuck me, even by comparison with the lunatic presbyterian homosexual, Brown, this vapid, featureless, shape-shifting, airhead clown and his gang of good for fuck all braying oiks don't look remotely worthwhile. An achievement of which he might be ironically proud; to look as bad as the worst we have ever had.
Yes, the tuscan is right, move the fuckers to Brum. A prohibition on party politics as a lucrative career for otherwise deadbeat degenerates like, well all of them; limited, finite terms in office; restoration of civil service independence and the abolition of spads. Abolition of the lobby system of reporting. Scrap the license fee. How's that for a start, Dave, call me Tony ? Beats the gunpowder levitation experience which you all so richly merit.
Public service should be an honour not a fucking license to print money. What a dreadful despicable, contemptible shower, Cameron included.
ps, as for anonymous jock above, 12.49., it is good to see the miracle-working SNP out of bed so early, not still cuddled up with their nieces and nephews.
Just shows what you can do when you have a govt who actually CARES about its constituents!
Yep, like Wendy Alexander.
anon 12.46
[can't type for gleeful laughter]
Thank you, you've cheered me up for the rest of the day.
That was almost too easy, you silly, silly little man.
Part of the trouble is the gradual change away from an understanding of "proper" behaviour and the need to comply with the unwritten spirit underlying any rules. Now it is more a question of "what can I get away with" coupled with a willingness to constantly attempt to find new and inventive "intepretations" of how the rules can be applied.
This is nothing new. In the City the ability to operate flexibly on the "my word is my bond" principles and an understanding of the "spirit" un