Falconer : Anti-Catholic Statutory Bigotry to Stay
The government can find time in the busy legislatory calendar to drive Catholic Adoption agencies out of business, but it can't find time to amend anti-Roman Catholic bigotry enshrined in statute. Lord Falconer told Lord Patten that "The Government already have a heavy legislative programme and therefore have no plans to legislate in this area."They say the victors write the history books. Remember, remember, that it was because of the existence of an oppressive anti-Catholic protestant tyranny of corrupt politicians that Guido origianlly sought to blow up parliament on 5/11. After four centuries the only remaining statutory discrimination is still against Guido's co-religionists. It is shameful that today, in a purportedly modern liberal democracy, the state discriminates against one specific faith. Did you know it is still the law that a Catholic parish church has to get authorisation from the local Anglican church for its own name? The political leader that promises to remove these symbolic but shameful laws will not be forgotten by Catholic voters...
84 comments:
Go live in Scotland - Catholics rule the roost up there.
Treacherous swines, the lot of them!
After all the blather of the paedophile protecting moral guardians of Rome, perhaps we should keep it.
Hang on, Guido. As long as the monarch is head of the Church of England he/she has to be an Anglican.
I like the idea of oppressing Catholics. But that's because my wife is a Papist and I'm CoE so with me its personal.
What would the Tories find time for this either? I doubt it.
The political leader that promises to remove these symbolic but shameful laws will not be forgotten by Catholic voters...
Why would they bother, too busy getting cosy with our moslem brothers.
You can't approach this piecemeal. Why address just catholics? The entire structure of privilege for those who happen to believe in the supernatural has to be dismantled. As for having the head of the weirdos as head of state, well that's just ridiculous. Disestablishment now!
Well Dave just voted to make it illegal for Catholics to follow their faith with regards to adoption, so don't expect any help from him.
Dave should allow Govt time for a private members bill to rectify this calvanist outrage
Need a Bill of Rights and written constitution and no monarchy
Shame we don't live in a democracy,maybe you could promise to vote for them ,they are going to need all the votes they can get in the locals.
At least anti-Catholic bigotry makes a a change from the usual Catholic bigotry against proddies, queers, people who use condoms, etc etc.
PS. Guthrum, mate, you're wrong. The most stable political intitutions in all of human history have *combined* church and state, not separated them. Long live the God Emperor!
"As long as the monarch is head of the Church of England he/she has to be an Anglican"
Er no; he/she/it has *not* to be a papist, can be a buddhist, mormon etc etc
And Neau Arbiet are adding to the anti left footer laws - Sexual Orientation Regulations...
Guiod, don't you understand, you're a heretic. Now hush!
WHERE HAS ALL THE MONEY GONE
With deepest apologies to Pete Seeger
Where has all the money gone?
Long time passing
Where has all the money gone?
Long time ago
Where has all the money gone?
Gordon’s taking all we own.
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?
Where have all the doctors gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the doctors gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the doctors gone?
F**ked by Labour every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?
Where have all the young men gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the young men gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the young men gone?
Carrying knives and using them
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?
Where have all the soldiers gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the soldiers gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the soldiers gone?
Screwed in Iraq every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?
Where have all the liars gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the liars gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the liars gone?
With Teflon Tony every one.
When will we ever learn?
When will we ever learn?
You're not that much of an anarchist after all are you Guido, the church still has you. Personally I'm going for a lifetime of blameless sin, probably a bit like yourself but I take responsibility for what I do. I don't need some snake oil salesman giving me absolution after three Hail Marys.
Well, Gordon Brown's nose picking exploits have today gone mainstream!
Tom Utley refers craftily to it towards the end of his column in today's Daily Mail.
"caught picking his nose"
Gordo's bogey eating was pictured in todays Metro, frame by frame.
Yuuuuukkkk
The Catholics are still a duplicitous bunch. They must continue to be watched and controlled.
When the British public realise of this outrage perpetrated in their name by a NuLab "government" I don't remember anybody voted for, Blair, Brown, Hatton and all might as well start packing their bags.
The British people are a just people. And they will vote for the just party that will rid the country of this pathetic anti-British law - no doubt foisted on us by the NuLab cohorts in the Common Market.
That's your party and my party. The Conservative Party.
struggling for something important to write about Guido? Try Tory councillors pimping girls to pay for their morgages...
Er, I think you've got a couple of your wires crossed there John...
Forget that.
The SBS has entered Iran!!
Well, I can't see the anti-Catholic legislation being struck down any time soon, and if Gordon Brown actually did something about it then here's one cradle Catholic who STILL wouldn't vote for him.
My old Dad, God rest him, had a robust view on inter-denominational relations. Many's the time he would cry "Christ, it's cold - someone throw another Methodist on the fire..."
Probably go to jail to now. For offending fireists.
A good , Catholic education is hard to better, particularly for girls; but this morning I have had a sharp lesson in its inadequacies.
Eating bogeys is a form of communion with the devil. Apart from courtesy to the rest of the company, that's why it's not done.
And not in the mother of parliaments in front of the entire opposition, country and indeed the whole world, just before delivering the 2007 Budget speech, and while your party's prime minister is on his feet answering hostile parliamentary questions, either. Not even by a mannerless, godless, whatever -kind- he- is of a Scottish protestant.
So then I googled those medicalized words that challenge schoolgirl latin to get my mind round non-spiritual interpretations of such behaviour.
Brown is not just mad, he's disgusting.
"This is the worst kind of discrimination. The kind against me." - Bender, Futurama.
Strange, given Blair's Roman tendencies...
Catholics used to be suspected of lack of patriotism because their first loyalty was to Rome. Now that the CofE calls itself JudeoChristian and confines its interests to Islam and buggery Rome is starting to look more attractive.
The Pope has to come to some accommodation with the Royal family though. We can't have sleazebags like Blair selling the post of Head of State to Lord Levy or his friends.
meanwhile....15 serviceman taken by the Iranians......
Falconer is protecting us.
Abolish this prejudice and slotgob would be claiming to be 'First Lady', wearing white dresses in audiences with the pope and... oh, sorry, she already does.
The original Guido Fawkes a libertarian freedom fighter? Hmmm. Methinks he would probably have been keen on Catholic authoritarianism.
Personally I object to the idea of our head of state being loyal to another head of state. This is a political rather than religious measure.
Catholics like jews owe their allegiance to a power other than their elected secular parliament, that is why neither should be allowed into parliament.
Im not trying to be controversial I merely speak the truth.
Muslims should also be barred.
To whom do Jews owe their allegiance Hitch?
anonymous 2:11
A silly question, it all depends upon whether you are buying or selling (honours?)!
anon 2;11
To each other , they will always put community before country.
In the same way that a Catholic must always kiss the popes ring.
Why do you think that we invaded Iraq, it wasnt for the oil or WMD's
It was for Israel , have a good look at all those neocons , not only are most of them jewish they also hold Israeli passports , odd isnt it that a country would put its most sensitive agencies in the hands of people who citizenship of a foriegn country?
When the catholics allow a protestant can be the pope...
We'll allow a catholic to be King or Queen of England
Catholicism and Protestantism are just local variations of Judaism anyway - an alien religion from a far-away continent about which we know too bloody much. What we need is a home-grown British religion to entertain the proles.
Keep the bloody Catholics from ruling the roost with their Papist anti-christian tosh. Take their dosh and give it to the poor.
Oh, hang on, they wouldn't then have a constituency to hang on their every word...
If only we had made the Moslems ask for permission from the C of E when they wanted to open each new mosque.
Typical miss understanding of the laws. The law is not anti catholic, it is pro democracy. Until the catholics remember that they owe an aligance to their democracy first and not to the Pope, then these laws should stay. The Church of England is a balwark against those that wish to force religeon down the throat of everyone. That sounds odd, but is true because its the state church. Everyone has a right to be a member, and the basis of that Church is a direct relationship with god and therefore does not interfere with the state, despite being the state church. Of course if we go the whole hog and give in to the Popists then the Church of England would have to hand back thousands of crumbling churches... OF course, the bishops in the Church of England forget their own constitutional position - witness their appalling gaff in talking to Rome about merging churches. er no. they just dont get it.
Fawks was a terrorist of course. The first WMD. What are you a US apologist 5/11 - 5th November, please.
Perhaps we should all have to apologise for the torture and execution of Guido 1.0?
Yes - stop discrimination! If the Monarch can be a Catholic why can't the Pope be Protestant or Atheist?
"There is a god and the Pope is his interpreter"
"There is a god and Mohammed is his messanger"
"Tony Blair told the truth over Iraq"
Which of these three statements shows the slightest interest in evidence-based logic?
The Bishop of Rome hath no jurisdiction in this realm of England.
The further Catholicism is kept from Government the safer we shall be from the European Conspiracy Project.
Guido should change his denomination if he has difficulties - it certainly not discrimination against Guido's "Co-religionists" unless Catholics are Non-Christians.
Assuming the Catholic denomination is Christian, it is only the allegiance to a foreign prince and neo-pagan rites from the Roman Empire that are the impediment. You are perfectly free to attend an Anglican Church and show allegiance to The Queen and England.......
Whilst this discussion is amusing, it is also theologically inept! All you members of the CofE are Catholics - go back to your book of Common Prayer and read the Creed "Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church" Or perhaps to be a member of the CofE you no longer have to believe in the words of the Nicene Creed. Now Roman Catholics are what you are on about, a horse of a very different hue!
With Charles as King and the Bogey man as PM we will need all the help God can give us......catholic or Protestant
oliver, 6.01 - I thought the whole attraction of the CofE was that it didn't require its members to believe in anything...
Guido this is Fenian nonsense. Get bloatered this week end and clear your head.
Quite right too.
Kick a fenian in the head and we'll petrol bomb his home.
Kick him in the balls and we'll sing no Pope of Rome
If he comes ahead, you will hear the famous cry...
FUCK OFF YA FENIAN BASTARD - SURRENDER OR YOU'LL DIE!
Who's the leigitmate heir of James II these days?
How anyone who claims to be intelligent can have 'faith in god' is beyond me. Get real and stop being a sheep that follows without thought or question. How many more centuries will we have to suffer from the actions of those who think god is on their side. All religions are just gangs or clubs for those who can't come to terms with reality.
To The Glorious, Pious and Immortal Memory, of the Great and Good King William,
who saved us from Knaves and Knavery, Popes and Popery,
from Brass Money and Wooden Shoes,
and whosoever denies this toast may he be slammed, jammed and crammed into the Great Gun of Athlone, and the gun fired into the Popes Belly and the Pope into the Devil's Belly and the door locked and the key in an Orangeman's Pocket
F.T.P. Hmailton
"How anyone who claims to be intelligent can have 'faith in god' is beyond me. Get real and stop being a sheep that follows without thought or question. How many more centuries will we have to suffer from the actions of those who think god is on their side."
Yes, those great Christians Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Hitler certainly taught us about the dangers of religious belief. If only we had taken notice of those evil Christian Jacobins in the 1790s we might have avoided so much bloodshed. Even as late as 1917 we should have been warned by the brutal regime of that Christian chappie Lenin.
Let us all remember that brave secularist who stood up against the Nazis - Pastor Martin Neimuller.
Or that great fan of atheism General Franco who secured the release of Spanish Jews from Nazi concentration camps and allowed Jews in threatened territories to seek sanctuary in Spanish embassies.
"All you members of the CofE are Catholics - go back to your book of Common Prayer and read the Creed "Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church" Or perhaps to be a member of the CofE you no longer have to believe in the words of the Nicene Creed. Now Roman Catholics are what you are on about, a horse of a very different hue!"
You are confusing the Roman Catholic Church with the wider meaning of the word "catholic" i.e. universal.
And the 39 articles are hardly Catholic...
Guido, are you suggesting that were it not for the law you might have a claim to the throne? Or is it that you resent not being allowed to be able to "marry" Prince Charles?
It's pathetic either way. I've read up on what the Catholic monarchs of England did in the 16th and 17th centuries, and it's blooming lucky for you lot that the Catholics were not exterminated completely, 'cos they bloody-well deserved it. James 2nd should have been garotted, not allowed to escape.
Where is Cranmer when you need him?
"Who's the leigitmate heir of James II these days?"
Francis von Wittelsbach, who's known more as the pretender to the throne of Bavaria (where he lives) than of "England, Scotland, France and Ireland." Which of course in turn reminds one that the Jacobites such as they were (or are) have also never formally renounced Edward III's claim to the French throne that started the Hundred Years' War, and that the current crop of Hanoverians dropped when they were hosting Louis XVIII in his exile from Napoleon.
Yes Oliver but the XXXIX Articles define the Anglican not The Creed.........as for noongeranonymous....it would be wise not to get too confused by political tyrants or what they claim - they were interested in Power not Truth - and the Book of Revelation describes them.......back to school boyo
Is Blair Catholic
He has been to Rome to see Pope
Only the Pope can convert in secret apparently
Never mind about gays adopting sprogs. I still want to see if anyone uses this law to demand a gay marriage in Westminster Cathederal. (Or a Mosque)
Anonymous said...
Where is Cranmer when you need him?
His Grace is very much here, reading this thread with interest.
Since Mr Fawkes finds His Grace 'boring and bigoted', there is little point in attempting to enlighten him. He has little grasp of historical politics and even less of theology. He has yet to explain why opposition to this proposed amendment (and therefore support of the Act of Settlement and the XXXIX Articles) must be bigotry, yet the insistence that the Pope must be Roman Catholic is not. Mr Fawkes' definition of bigotry appears to be any strongly-held view which differs from his own.
He also appears to indicate his political allegiance is now with the SNP, who support the abolition of 'these shameful laws'. No serious mainstream political party will touch this with a bargepole. His Grace was one among many who helped to make the Constitution Protestant, and it is watertight.
The jury is out on Hitlers chritianity. Of course it suits Christians to brand him an atheist.
Look what's come out in Scotland
Orange warning over Union danger
Strangely "on-message" with Gordon Brown.
Would Gordon really go to such extremes to find allies against the SNP?
Does Labour support the Orange Order now?
Cranmer: the head of the Anglican Church has (understandably) to be an Anglican, surely? Yet Britain - with an established, landgrab-funded established Church of England - is a multi-faith, multi-racial society. So why is it therefore 'bigotry' for the Pope (or the Archbishop of Westminster) to be a Catholic? The Chief Rabbi is Jewish - you have a problem with that? Worried about supranational spiritual links, are you? Bit late for that, old chap, if I may say so. Wake up and smell the coffee.
And what has that to do with political restrictions on English Catholics imposed in the 17c and 18c?
Perhaps you'd like to go back and repeal the anti-slavery laws? Remove the universal parliamentary franchise? Reinstate the Corn Laws?
Or maybe just sit at the seashore and try to hold back the waves?
That tide just keeps on coming in. Must be a worry for you and the wife.
There is a petition on 10 Downing Street website if people want to sign it http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Act-Settlement/
Simple solution. The errant child of Rome must return to the fold. After all, the CoE considers itself to be the 'Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church'.
Problem solved - except that the bones of Wulfstan and Oswald may be lost for ever, as with many other shrines.
PS - why's Guido so upset ? When was he last at Mass ?
*coughs* I wonder why a certain minister whose heart is close to Europe (not just Rome) wasn't in the aye lobby?
If our state stopped discriminating against catholics it would become neutral betweem right and wrong.
Croppies lie down!
"a certain minister whose heart is close to Europe"
Only guessing here - was that Denis McShane, the tosser?
WTF's a croppie?
"If our state stopped discriminating against catholics it would become neutral betweem right and wrong."
I thought that was the usual topos of an Anglican sermon?
the last thing we need is catholics in power.
Of course "both" proddy dogs and catlicks are heretics....
I am shocked by the blatant anti-Catholic bigotry showing up in this thread. Do people actually still believe this nonsense about Catholics owing allegience to Rome over their own country? Where is this coming from? Is it being taught by the CofE or in British schools?
There is nothing in Catholic doctrine that calls for the faithful to owe any POLITICAL allegience to the Pope. Catholic teaching actually states that people owe obedience to legitimate authority.
The Catholic Church requires obedience to its teachings only in matters of RELIGIOUS doctrine. I presume the CofE also has a some rules about what its members should believe, or does it permit Satin worshipers to be full members its congregations?
His Grace does not usually responfd to anonymice, but the level of ignorance manifest above cannot go unchallenged.
The 'religious realm' is not private, but acutely involved in the political. The words of the Holy Father in Sacramentum Caritatis:
"Worship pleasing to God can never be a purely private matter, without consequences for our relationships with others: it demands a public witness to our faith. Evidently, this is true for all the baptised, yet it is especially incumbent upon those who, by virtue of their social or political position, must make decisions regarding fundamental values, such as respect for human life, its defence from conception to natural death, the family built upon marriage between a man and a woman, the freedom to educate one's children, and the promotion of the common good in all its forms. These values are not negotiable. Consequently, Catholic politicians and legislators, conscious of their grave responsibility before society, must feel particularly bound, on the basis of a properly formed conscience, to introduce and support laws grounded in human nature. There is an objective connection here with the Eucharist(1.Cor 11:27-29). Bishops are bound to reaffirm constantly these values as part of their responsibility to the flock entrusted to them."
Of course, to remind you of this is 'bigotry', but His Grace still awaits someone who can explain to him why to state this is 'bigotry', but an assertion that the Church of England is 'not a church in the proper sense', is not.
Cranmer, nice slight of hand, but I clearly saw that you palmed the ball. You are attempting to confuse that matter by conflating a call to participate in civil affairs with disloyalty to one's country.
Yes, the Catholic faith is not supposed to be kept just behind closed doors, and is to be used to guide one's public affairs. But the Church also teaches for a separation of Church and State (something to do with render unto Caeser, etc.). Church and State form two separate functions, the Church may teach on moral values, but the laws are still made in civil society.
Nothing in the quote you cited calls for Catholics to disobey the law or to resist lawful authorities, or did you skip over the "introduce and support laws" part? Shouldn't Catholics have the same right to influence legislation members of society?
To make clear exactly what is the teaching of the Catholic Church on the obedience to civil authorities, let me quote from its official catechism on the duties of citizens:
"Those subject to authority should regard those in authority as representatives of God, who has made them stewards of his gifts. . . . Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fullfill their roles in life of the political community. Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one's country." Nothing in there about checking with Rome first.
Mr Anonymous (O, for the creativity of a name..),
There was no slight of hand, no deception, no inference of 'disloyalty', and no mention of Roman Catholics being called to disobey the law. These are the inventions of your insecure mind.
The Roman Catholic Church does indeed teach as you specify, but what occurs when those who hold high office and those who legislate are Roman Catholic? Are they not constrained to order their 'public' duty according to their 'private' faith? Have you not, for example, seen the many calls to withhold the Eucharist from Roman Catholic politicians who vote in favour of abortion? You appear to live a conveniently Hellenised world in which everything is conveniently compartmentalised. The public/private distinction is not as clear cut for those who profess a faith yet operate in the civil realm, and if (as you say) Church and State are utterly distinct in their functions, why is the Vatican both? When does His Holiness cease being Pope, and when does he become Head of State? When did he render unto Ceasar the Vatican Bank?
If I must have a name, so be it. Cranmer, you and I have spoken before about your erroneous views. Perchance you remember. But back to the current matter at hand. My complaint about bigotry was based on views expressed here that said Catholics could not be trusted as they owed allegiance to Rome over their own country, or did I misread the following statements:
“Treacherous swines, the lot of them!”
“The Catholics are still a duplicitous bunch. They must continue to be watched and controlled.”
“Catholics like jews owe their allegiance to a power other than their elected secular parliament, that is why neither should be allowed into parliament.”
“Until the catholics remember that they owe an aligance to their democracy first and not to the Pope, then these laws should stay.”
Your objection to my shock suggested to me that you supported these claims of disloyalty. If I was mistaken and you agree with me that these charges against Catholics have no foundation, then we can move on and examine your concern that, apparently, there is something unique and sinister about Catholics basing their civic morality upon their religious faith.
It is not my understanding that Anglicans, nor other Protestants, call for a complete divorce of one’s religious views from one’s practice of daily life in society. Am I wrong on this? Was not the British anti-slavery campaign driven in no small part by religious teachings?
What if an MP pushed for legislation calling for the forced “euthanasia” of everyone over the age of 60 as a means of cutting costs at the Public Health System? Would not the CofE denounce this MP? Would you not support the CofE’s right to denounce the MP? If your answer to these last two questions is “yes”, then you don’t really have a problem with religion mixing with politics, just whose religious views are to be permitted. If your answer is “no” on either of these questions, then we have a much bigger problem than anti-Catholic bigotry.
Mr Elye de Brazenose,
His Grace has so many communicants that you must forgive him for not recalling you by name, and the adoption of 'anonymous' is of no assistance whatsoever in the continuation of dialogue.
To take the comments Mr Fawkes' bunch and adduce them as His Grace's own appears an awful injustice. His Grace has never said he has a problem mixing religion in politics; indeed, it is not only his raison d'etre but also that of his blog.
You might be interested in the words of Cardinal Cormac Murphy O'Connor yesterday on this theme, in which he said he had no problem being a loyal British Catholic, but...
This is possibly the most significant Roman Catholic 'but' since 1829, has been explored by His Grace, here. You might even accord with His Grace's conclusion...
yep, its good theres no time for changes to our laws, they have stood the test of time!
Post a Comment